Rick,

What happened to the userinit registry string? Windows update
rebooted the PC. Why would it corrupt the string in the registry?

Note that userinit.exe file looks good. It's the same as the one on
the kid's PC.

M.

On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:54:27 -0500, "Rick \"Nutcase\" Rogers"
<rick@mvps.org> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Yes, but it involves editing the registry remotely or via a BartPE disk. You
>need to look at the userinit string, and the only way you are going to be
>able to do that is to load the registry remotely (unless you are able to
>login successfully in Safe mode).
>
>--
>Best of Luck,
>
>Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>Associate Expert - WindowsXP Expert Zone
>www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>
>"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:43b814ba.17073921@news.east.cox.net...
>> Rick,
>>
>> I copied userinit.exe over to wsaupdater.exe and rebooted....but still
>> had the same login-autologout problem. Any other ideas?
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 11:40:59 -0500, "Rick \"Nutcase\" Rogers"
>> <rick@mvps.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Right, this is typical of the Blazefind issue mentioned in the article I
>>>linked to. Your passwords and accounts *are* being recognized and
>>>accepted,
>>>it's the userinit value that is screwed up.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Best of Luck,
>>>
>>>Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>>>http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>>>Associate Expert - WindowsXP Expert Zone
>>>www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>>Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>>>
>>>"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>news:43b7ff03.11515359@news.east.cox.net...
>>>> It's XP Home, and I guess I wasn't clear enough.
>>>>
>>>> My wife was doing windows updates, then the machine asked to reboot.
>>>> She clicked "ok", and when it rebooted it brought up the usename and
>>>> password window. When she typed in her account and password, it would
>>>> log in, and then immediately save settings and logout, ending up back
>>>> at the login window. All accounts on this machine do this. You type
>>>> your password, up comes your personal backround for a sec, then it
>>>> saves setting and logs you out.
>>>>
>>>> We got an XP Home Upgrade CD (I have no idea which computer it belongs
>>>> to as we have five in the house). I was able to get the System Restore
>>>> Console up from "boot from CD", and then login with "no password". Now
>>>> we can "see" our files on C and D, but we cannot copy or access them.
>>>>
>>>> What should we do now? Are we completely screwed because windows
>>>> update screwed up our password file? Or, is there something else we
>>>> should try from the System Restore Console?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks...
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:09:53 GMT, markxyz59@cox.net (Mark) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I posted earlier about Windows Updates screwing up and not accepting
>>>>>any passwords (it would login and then quickly log out). Good News: I
>>>>>was able to get the Recovery Console to give us access to the disk. We
>>>>>can see C and D drives and all files are there.
>>>>>
>>>>>Is there a way to clobber/reset passwords from the command prompt?
>>>>>
>>>>>Our first instinct was to stick a USB Drive in and copy stuff, but the
>>>>>USB drivers don't appear to be there on the recovery console.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
news:43b7f006.7678609@news.east.cox.net...
>I posted earlier about Windows Updates screwing up and not accepting
> any passwords (it would login and then quickly log out). Good News: I
> was able to get the Recovery Console to give us access to the disk. We
> can see C and D drives and all files are there.
>
> Is there a way to clobber/reset passwords from the command prompt?
>
> Our first instinct was to stick a USB Drive in and copy stuff, but the
> USB drivers don't appear to be there on the recovery console.
>


Unable to Log on if the Boot Partition Drive Letter Has Changed
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=249321

How to restore the system/boot drive letter in Windows
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=223188

The two KB articles requires the use of a networked machine to gain access
to the registry. You could also perform the registry edits via BartPE
bootable CD. Or you can *slave* the hard drive to another working XP machine
to make the registry edits. If you need help on doing this please let me
know.

--
William

Having your wife breathing down your neck won't
help you solve the problem. Asking every Tom, Dick
and Harry is like consulting a dozen different doctors
and getting fourteen different opinions. Ask your wife
to leave you in peace, concentrate on the respondents
who appear to know what they are talking about (selecting
an MVP is a fair guide), then take things easy.

Unfortunately it may be too late to save your installation
because you may have gotten into a quagmire by attempting
a repair job where none was needed. Your system may
now be in an unstable condition, with no way out other
than a complete reload.

The command "fixmbr" often allows Windows to recover.
Sometimes it does not.

It would take me some twenty minutes to document my option
d) but I won't spend the time unless you get serious by
concentrating on this branch of the two threads.

I'll wait for your response.


"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
news:43b86cf0.39656203@news.east.cox.net...
> Pegasus,
>
> Please understand that I have my wife pounding on me every 10 minutes.
> Hence my "skittery rabbit" reaction to try and fix this thing. I have
> tried just about everything.
>
> Earlier you said the fixmbr (you gave me the link) should fix the
> screwed up disk problem...but it didn't.
>
> I've recently tried option "d", which you said is hard.
>
> "d) By booting the PC with a Nordahl boot disk
> (http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd/bootdisk.html)"
>
> I've been able to DL the SW and make a boot CD and gain access to C.
> This allowed me to grab a few floppies of files that my wife needed,
> hence making me a momentary hero.
>
> Can you explain how to do the regedit to sort out the logical drives?
> The site on "d" doesn't do a good job of explaining the issue and
> solution.
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:38:16 +1100, "Pegasus \(MVP\)" <I.can@fly.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
> >news:43b814ba.17073921@news.east.cox.net...
> >> Rick,
> >>
> >> I copied userinit.exe over to wsaupdater.exe and rebooted....but still
> >> had the same login-autologout problem. Any other ideas?
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 11:40:59 -0500, "Rick \"Nutcase\" Rogers"
> >> <rick@mvps.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Right, this is typical of the Blazefind issue mentioned in the article
I
> >> >linked to. Your passwords and accounts *are* being recognized and
> >accepted,
> >> >it's the userinit value that is screwed up.
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Best of Luck,
> >> >
> >> >Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
> >> >http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
> >> >Associate Expert - WindowsXP Expert Zone
> >> >www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >> >Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
> >> >
> >> >"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:43b7ff03.11515359@news.east.cox.net...
> >> >> It's XP Home, and I guess I wasn't clear enough.
> >> >>
> >> >> My wife was doing windows updates, then the machine asked to reboot.
> >> >> She clicked "ok", and when it rebooted it brought up the usename and
> >> >> password window. When she typed in her account and password, it
would
> >> >> log in, and then immediately save settings and logout, ending up
back
> >> >> at the login window. All accounts on this machine do this. You type
> >> >> your password, up comes your personal backround for a sec, then it
> >> >> saves setting and logs you out.
> >> >>
> >> >> We got an XP Home Upgrade CD (I have no idea which computer it
belongs
> >> >> to as we have five in the house). I was able to get the System
Restore
> >> >> Console up from "boot from CD", and then login with "no password".
Now
> >> >> we can "see" our files on C and D, but we cannot copy or access
them.
> >> >>
> >> >> What should we do now? Are we completely screwed because windows
> >> >> update screwed up our password file? Or, is there something else we
> >> >> should try from the System Restore Console?
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks...
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:09:53 GMT, markxyz59@cox.net (Mark) wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>I posted earlier about Windows Updates screwing up and not accepting
> >> >>>any passwords (it would login and then quickly log out). Good News:
I
> >> >>>was able to get the Recovery Console to give us access to the disk.
We
> >> >>>can see C and D drives and all files are there.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Is there a way to clobber/reset passwords from the command prompt?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Our first instinct was to stick a USB Drive in and copy stuff, but
the
> >> >>>USB drivers don't appear to be there on the recovery console.
> >
> >You're getting deeper into trouble all the time. Much of what
> >you do is futile, because the facts are as Rick Rogers stated them
> >a moment ago:
> >
> >1. There is nothing wrong with your password.
> >2. Your drive letters are messed up.
> >3. To fix them, you need to access the registry directly.
> >
> >I pointed this out a long time ago but you chose to ignore it.
> >
> >Here are four ways to edit the registry:
> >a) Via a networked PC.
> >b) By temporarily installing the disk as a slave
> > disk in some other WinXP/2000.
> >c) By booting the PC with a Bart PE CD (www.bootdisk.com)
> >d) By booting the PC with a Nordahl boot disk
> > (http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd/bootdisk.html)
> >
> >a) is easy, b) is not easy, c) is not easy and time consuming,
> >d) is quick but difficult.
> >
> >If you stop shopping around and if you take your pick from
> >the options above then I'll spend the time to give you the recipe
> >to fix the machine.
> >
> >
>

hehe...does "best of luck" mean...."dude you're screwed?"

Is there such a thing as a dos-level regedit for XP? I know they
exist for Win-95, but can't find one for XP.

Also, next time you talk to some folks at Microsoft, please let them
know that their Windows Update (and System Recovery) software sucks. I
think it's ridiculous that there isn't any low level software that
says go back to "User-Specified-Date" registry hive.

When it works, Windows is good...better than Linux, IMO. But, when
it's broken, XP is crappy software, and we're stuck with it because we
let microsoft be a monopoly. Imagine if our local telephones were like
this

M.

On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 19:22:38 -0500, "Rick \"Nutcase\" Rogers"
<rick@mvps.org> wrote:

>Hi Mark,
>
>Yes, as it's not the file itself, it's the registry entry for userinit -
>probably missing the trailing comma (very common).
>
>--
>Best of Luck,
>
>Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>Associate Expert - WindowsXP Expert Zone
>www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>
>"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:43b86e4e.40006453@news.east.cox.net...
>> Rick,
>>
>> I think you are dead-on-right. The password seems to be accepted, then
>> the custom background is shown (mine is airplanes, my wife's is a pic
>> of the kids), then we're summarily logged off.
>>
>> Note that I grabbed userinit.exe off the kid's PC (also XP Home SP2)
>> and copied it to wsaupdater.exe on my wife's as you suggested. I noted
>> that it's exactly the same size. In the end it didn't help.
>>
>> Ideas?
>>
>> On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:56:38 -0500, "Rick \"Nutcase\" Rogers"
>> <rick@mvps.org> wrote:
>>
>>>He doesn't need to clear the password, as I've already pointed out this is
>>>not the issue. The login/logout behavior is caused by a damaged userinit
>>>value, not a bad password. If the password were the problem, the system
>>>would not begin to login at all.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Best of Luck,
>>>
>>>Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>>>http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>>>Associate Expert - WindowsXP Expert Zone
>>>www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>>>Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>>>
>>>"Dixonian69" <Dixonian69@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>>>news:9D6CD529-B7C5-4D61-A7F6-07AFA9AA84DE@microsoft.com...
>>>> Since you started a new thread, you probably didn't see or read my
>>>> reply!!
>>>> How about logging into safe mode option menu and
>>>> 1) Last Known Good Configuration OR
>>>> 2) Regular Safe mode and running system restore?
>>>> 3) If not regular safe mode, then safe mode w/command prompt only?
>>>>
>>>> See if "Administrator" account works?
>>>> The "Administrator" account password is usually blank (ie no password)!
>>>>
>>>> Once in Safe mode you can repair the other her user login!!
>>>>
>>>> Well, I'm surprised. You are following both threads!!
>>>> So why start a new, though?
>>>>
>>>> "Mark" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I posted earlier about Windows Updates screwing up and not accepting
>>>>> any passwords (it would login and then quickly log out). Good News: I
>>>>> was able to get the Recovery Console to give us access to the disk. We
>>>>> can see C and D drives and all files are there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a way to clobber/reset passwords from the command prompt?
>>>>>
>>>>> Our first instinct was to stick a USB Drive in and copy stuff, but the
>>>>> USB drivers don't appear to be there on the recovery console.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Hi William,

I tried all of those, except BartPE. I avoided Bart because he wants
you to pay for CD boot image (not that I blame him!). Maybe I'll blow
all day tomorrow on Bart-stuff. I tried everything else today.

That Norwegian/Russian software is pretty awesome:

http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd/bootdisk.html

I'm assuming it's like BartPE, in that it completely unlocks the C
drive (unlike the stupid Recovery Console). The problem is that it's
Registry Editor is only for Win95, and it cannot do mixed FAT32/NTFS
systems (which I have).

Thanks.

On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 16:48:17 -0800, "WTC"
<bcrawfordjr(remove)@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:43b7f006.7678609@news.east.cox.net...
>>I posted earlier about Windows Updates screwing up and not accepting
>> any passwords (it would login and then quickly log out). Good News: I
>> was able to get the Recovery Console to give us access to the disk. We
>> can see C and D drives and all files are there.
>>
>> Is there a way to clobber/reset passwords from the command prompt?
>>
>> Our first instinct was to stick a USB Drive in and copy stuff, but the
>> USB drivers don't appear to be there on the recovery console.
>>
>
>
>Unable to Log on if the Boot Partition Drive Letter Has Changed
>http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=249321
>
>How to restore the system/boot drive letter in Windows
>http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=223188
>
>The two KB articles requires the use of a networked machine to gain access
>to the registry. You could also perform the registry edits via BartPE
>bootable CD. Or you can *slave* the hard drive to another working XP machine
>to make the registry edits. If you need help on doing this please let me
>know.
>
>--
>William
>
>
>

Mark wrote:

> Rick,
>
> I think you are dead-on-right. The password seems to be accepted, then
> the custom background is shown (mine is airplanes, my wife's is a pic
> of the kids), then we're summarily logged off.
>
> Note that I grabbed userinit.exe off the kid's PC (also XP Home SP2)
> and copied it to wsaupdater.exe on my wife's as you suggested. I noted
> that it's exactly the same size. In the end it didn't help.
>
> Ideas?
>


You have to edit the appropriate entry in the registry, not replace the
file. All the info on what to do is in that link.

--
Rock
MS MVP Windows - Shell/User

You don't buy the CD image, you create this image yourself with your Win XP
CD. As far as I know BartPE is a free program. Maybe you clicked on one
those Google Ads.

Bart's Preinstalled Environment (BartPE) bootable live windows CD/DVD
http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/

--
William

"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
news:43b88ee7.48350703@news.east.cox.net...
> Hi William,
>
> I tried all of those, except BartPE. I avoided Bart because he wants
> you to pay for CD boot image (not that I blame him!). Maybe I'll blow
> all day tomorrow on Bart-stuff. I tried everything else today.
>
> That Norwegian/Russian software is pretty awesome:
>
> http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd/bootdisk.html
>
> I'm assuming it's like BartPE, in that it completely unlocks the C
> drive (unlike the stupid Recovery Console). The problem is that it's
> Registry Editor is only for Win95, and it cannot do mixed FAT32/NTFS
> systems (which I have).
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 16:48:17 -0800, "WTC"
> <bcrawfordjr(remove)@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:43b7f006.7678609@news.east.cox.net...
>>>I posted earlier about Windows Updates screwing up and not accepting
>>> any passwords (it would login and then quickly log out). Good News: I
>>> was able to get the Recovery Console to give us access to the disk. We
>>> can see C and D drives and all files are there.
>>>
>>> Is there a way to clobber/reset passwords from the command prompt?
>>>
>>> Our first instinct was to stick a USB Drive in and copy stuff, but the
>>> USB drivers don't appear to be there on the recovery console.
>>>
>>
>>
>>Unable to Log on if the Boot Partition Drive Letter Has Changed
>>http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=249321
>>
>>How to restore the system/boot drive letter in Windows
>>http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=223188
>>
>>The two KB articles requires the use of a networked machine to gain access
>>to the registry. You could also perform the registry edits via BartPE
>>bootable CD. Or you can *slave* the hard drive to another working XP
>>machine
>>to make the registry edits. If you need help on doing this please let me
>>know.
>>
>>--
>>William
>>
>>
>>
>

Hi William,

Great link! I was able to DL it, build the image and make a bootable
CD, and then use it to get files off my wife's PC and onto my 1 GB USB
memory stick.

Why the heck can't Microsoft make a utility like this?

Thanks for your help.

M.

On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:51:07 -0800, "WTC"
<bcrawfordjr(remove)@hotmail.com> wrote:

>You don't buy the CD image, you create this image yourself with your Win XP
>CD. As far as I know BartPE is a free program. Maybe you clicked on one
>those Google Ads.
>
>Bart's Preinstalled Environment (BartPE) bootable live windows CD/DVD
>http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/
>
>--
>William
>
>"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:43b88ee7.48350703@news.east.cox.net...
>> Hi William,
>>
>> I tried all of those, except BartPE. I avoided Bart because he wants
>> you to pay for CD boot image (not that I blame him!). Maybe I'll blow
>> all day tomorrow on Bart-stuff. I tried everything else today.
>>
>> That Norwegian/Russian software is pretty awesome:
>>
>> http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd/bootdisk.html
>>
>> I'm assuming it's like BartPE, in that it completely unlocks the C
>> drive (unlike the stupid Recovery Console). The problem is that it's
>> Registry Editor is only for Win95, and it cannot do mixed FAT32/NTFS
>> systems (which I have).
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 16:48:17 -0800, "WTC"
>> <bcrawfordjr(remove)@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
>>>news:43b7f006.7678609@news.east.cox.net...
>>>>I posted earlier about Windows Updates screwing up and not accepting
>>>> any passwords (it would login and then quickly log out). Good News: I
>>>> was able to get the Recovery Console to give us access to the disk. We
>>>> can see C and D drives and all files are there.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a way to clobber/reset passwords from the command prompt?
>>>>
>>>> Our first instinct was to stick a USB Drive in and copy stuff, but the
>>>> USB drivers don't appear to be there on the recovery console.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Unable to Log on if the Boot Partition Drive Letter Has Changed
>>>http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=249321
>>>
>>>How to restore the system/boot drive letter in Windows
>>>http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=223188
>>>
>>>The two KB articles requires the use of a networked machine to gain access
>>>to the registry. You could also perform the registry edits via BartPE
>>>bootable CD. Or you can *slave* the hard drive to another working XP
>>>machine
>>>to make the registry edits. If you need help on doing this please let me
>>>know.
>>>
>>>--
>>>William
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 15:54:15 GMT, markxyz59@cox.net (Mark) wrote:

>Great link! I was able to DL it, build the image and make a bootable
>CD, and then use it to get files off my wife's PC and onto my 1 GB USB
>memory stick.

Yep. Bart PE absolutely rocks.

>Why the heck can't Microsoft make a utility like this?

Heh ... never ask a geek a rhetorical question ;-)

>>"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message

>>> I tried all of those, except BartPE. I avoided Bart because he wants
>>> you to pay for CD boot image (not that I blame him!).

He doesn't - Bart PE is free. He may have other products that are not
(something has to cross-subsidize Bart PE development?) such as
pro-grade CD boot management software or something.

>>> That Norwegian/Russian software is pretty awesome:
>>> http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd/bootdisk.html

I bounced off that URL - i.e. the web browser found it just fine, but
I can't fit the text into my brain at the moment. Laaaater...

>>> I'm assuming it's like BartPE, in that it completely unlocks the C
>>> drive (unlike the stupid Recovery Console). The problem is that it's
>>> Registry Editor is only for Win95, and it cannot do mixed FAT32/NTFS
>>> systems (which I have).

A Win9x interactive registry editor would be a good thing to have.

On RC, Bart and other mOS candidates, see the rather dated...

http://cquirke.mvps.org/whatmos.htm

....which I wrote before I *really* got into Bart PE :-)

Registry settings, applied ahead of time, can make RC slightly less
useless, but it is not an OS (can't run arb apps), thus is not a mOS
(maintenance Operating System). Think of it as being like ye olde
Norton DiskTool.exe for DOS; a canned set of useful tools.

Now then, are we sitting comfortably? Then let's chew on this...

>Why the heck can't Microsoft make a utility like this?

How can MS so fail to understand stand-alone and unmanaged PC users?
Or do they know our needs, but ignore them anyway?

1) Lack of vision

There are several reasons why MS might not really understand how we
work and what we need, based on their assumption base.

Windows is either licensed on a retail basis, in which case MS garners
experience via PSS, or on an OEM basis, in which case support is by
the OEM or reseller thereof, and MS is out of the experience loop.

The relationship between MS and OEMs is dominated by the largest OEMs,
who have the power to demand concessions from MS by virtue of product
volume. These OEMs also do quite a bit of development when it comes
to pre-installing the OS; this is the market for which MS's closest
approach to a mOS - Windows PE - was developed.

Unfortunately, MS takes the abysmal service standards of large OEMs as
the norm. The typical large-OEM "service" approach is:
- wipe the HD and rebuild the installation via "restore" CD
- if that fails, issue an RMA to manage suspected hardware defects
- if that "wotrks", close the case as having been "fixed"

MS also evaluates users according to certain typical profiles, such as
the power user, the newbie home user, and so on. But they assume
these users exist in a vacuum, with no support resources other than
PSS (for the rare consumer that buys Windows as an upgrade) or OEMs,
where large-OEM "support" is the yardstick.

Here, most PCs are built by small custom builder/resellers or general
component distributors who assemble thier own generic PCs. Many of
these are too small to create their own automated installation
procedures, doing the same interactive install that end-users do.

These small OEMs are referred to as the DSP (Delivery Service Partner)
market, and speaking as a DSP in South Africa, I can tell you the
relationship between MS and DSPs is virtually non-existant, other than
promotional blurb. Specifically, there is no flow of tech support
information in either direction, nor are resources such as Service
Packs and other large downloads on CD, etc. provided.

In practice, the user's biggest concern is data loss, file system
corruption, and malware infection. None of these are the
responsibility of MS or OEM in warranty terms, but they are the bread
and butter for techs working for the user, as opposed to techs who
merely discharge a vendor's obligations as quickly as possible.

So you can see why MS may not "get" the need for a mOS from which data
can be recovered, file systems can be interactively repaired, and
malware can be formally detected and managed. Every fast-arrival at
just wipe and re-install" is further evidence of this lack of clue.

2) Conflicting agendas

Win9x was designed as a stand-alone OS for consumers, whereas NT was
designed as a network client for professionally-managed business
environments. With XP, this network client design has simply been
dropped into consumerland as-is, with a few dummy-down concessions to
the percieved needs of this market, and certain pro-grade
functionalities ripped out to stop bizworld catching a cheap lunch.

MS takes the consumer market for granted; there's hardly any
competitive pressure there. MS's competitive need was to demonstrate
they could scale up to enterprise level, and thus take on Linux
servers and UNIX/proprietary "big" systems.

So most of the focus has been on professional network management based
on corporate needs. PCs are beholden to The Server, from which the
Network Administrator's wishes are imposed, locking down what the user
can do. Users have limited roles, and so it makes sense to define
access rights in terms of what user or user role is in effect. All
data is on The Server, so the PCs that users actually use are
disposable; just wipe and rebuild, who cares what user preferences are
lost? No user at the keyboard should ever trump the Network Admin.

This is the complete opposite of what we want for our stand-alone PCs,
where NO "remote admin" is to ever attain any position of power over
the system. We generally physically secure our PCs, so it's usually
keyboard-uber-alles; user roles vary, and we generally fret less about
user A seeing user B's data than losing access to data altogether -
which is a real risk, given that these PCs generally do not have
backup devices or even the nominal MS Backup installed.

It all boils down to this: Who wins, a notional "administrator" that
seeks to assert control via automation or network, or the user at the
keyboard? Pro is for the first, Home is supposed to be the second,
and never will these divergent needs be met in the same product.

We need a mOS to recover data irrespective of the state of the system,
and assert our management objectives irrespective of how the system
may be set to block these. But what is a mOS to us, is a fearsome
hacking tool to the pro-admin'd network environment - and guess who
wins, when those agendas collide?

So you are sentenced to lose your data and have to surrender your
installation to any halfway-difficult malware, so that pro-managed
networks can be protected against anyone with physical access who
would be able to override administrative controls.

A large part of today's malware pain is a direct result of using a
network client OS as an unmanaged stand-alone OS. Home users are
expected to model their PC use on a notional corporate organogram,
with the same user pretending to be a limited employee one moment, and
then pretending to be the network administrator the next. Pathetic.



>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

Damn! I sense I touched a little nerve there wrt Microsoft

Thanks for all the great help. Getting BartPE working, saving the
files off onto a USB Memory Stick, reinstalling windows...PC was back
up (and booting faster than ever) in less than a day.

Mark

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 13:22:18 +0200, "cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)"
<cquirkenews@nospam.mvps.org> wrote:

>On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 15:54:15 GMT, markxyz59@cox.net (Mark) wrote:
>
>>Great link! I was able to DL it, build the image and make a bootable
>>CD, and then use it to get files off my wife's PC and onto my 1 GB USB
>>memory stick.
>
>Yep. Bart PE absolutely rocks.
>
>>Why the heck can't Microsoft make a utility like this?
>
>Heh ... never ask a geek a rhetorical question ;-)
>
>>>"Mark" <markxyz59@cox.net> wrote in message
>
>>>> I tried all of those, except BartPE. I avoided Bart because he wants
>>>> you to pay for CD boot image (not that I blame him!).
>
>He doesn't - Bart PE is free. He may have other products that are not
>(something has to cross-subsidize Bart PE development?) such as
>pro-grade CD boot management software or something.
>
>>>> That Norwegian/Russian software is pretty awesome:
>>>> http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd/bootdisk.html
>
>I bounced off that URL - i.e. the web browser found it just fine, but
>I can't fit the text into my brain at the moment. Laaaater...
>
>>>> I'm assuming it's like BartPE, in that it completely unlocks the C
>>>> drive (unlike the stupid Recovery Console). The problem is that it's
>>>> Registry Editor is only for Win95, and it cannot do mixed FAT32/NTFS
>>>> systems (which I have).
>
>A Win9x interactive registry editor would be a good thing to have.
>
>On RC, Bart and other mOS candidates, see the rather dated...
>
>http://cquirke.mvps.org/whatmos.htm
>
>...which I wrote before I *really* got into Bart PE :-)
>
>Registry settings, applied ahead of time, can make RC slightly less
>useless, but it is not an OS (can't run arb apps), thus is not a mOS
>(maintenance Operating System). Think of it as being like ye olde
>Norton DiskTool.exe for DOS; a canned set of useful tools.
>
>Now then, are we sitting comfortably? Then let's chew on this...
>
>>Why the heck can't Microsoft make a utility like this?
>
>How can MS so fail to understand stand-alone and unmanaged PC users?
>Or do they know our needs, but ignore them anyway?
>
>1) Lack of vision
>
>There are several reasons why MS might not really understand how we
>work and what we need, based on their assumption base.
>
>Windows is either licensed on a retail basis, in which case MS garners
>experience via PSS, or on an OEM basis, in which case support is by
>the OEM or reseller thereof, and MS is out of the experience loop.
>
>The relationship between MS and OEMs is dominated by the largest OEMs,
>who have the power to demand concessions from MS by virtue of product
>volume. These OEMs also do quite a bit of development when it comes
>to pre-installing the OS; this is the market for which MS's closest
>approach to a mOS - Windows PE - was developed.
>
>Unfortunately, MS takes the abysmal service standards of large OEMs as
>the norm. The typical large-OEM "service" approach is:
> - wipe the HD and rebuild the installation via "restore" CD
> - if that fails, issue an RMA to manage suspected hardware defects
> - if that "wotrks", close the case as having been "fixed"
>
>MS also evaluates users according to certain typical profiles, such as
>the power user, the newbie home user, and so on. But they assume
>these users exist in a vacuum, with no support resources other than
>PSS (for the rare consumer that buys Windows as an upgrade) or OEMs,
>where large-OEM "support" is the yardstick.
>
>Here, most PCs are built by small custom builder/resellers or general
>component distributors who assemble thier own generic PCs. Many of
>these are too small to create their own automated installation
>procedures, doing the same interactive install that end-users do.
>
>These small OEMs are referred to as the DSP (Delivery Service Partner)
>market, and speaking as a DSP in South Africa, I can tell you the
>relationship between MS and DSPs is virtually non-existant, other than
>promotional blurb. Specifically, there is no flow of tech support
>information in either direction, nor are resources such as Service
>Packs and other large downloads on CD, etc. provided.
>
>In practice, the user's biggest concern is data loss, file system
>corruption, and malware infection. None of these are the
>responsibility of MS or OEM in warranty terms, but they are the bread
>and butter for techs working for the user, as opposed to techs who
>merely discharge a vendor's obligations as quickly as possible.
>
>So you can see why MS may not "get" the need for a mOS from which data
>can be recovered, file systems can be interactively repaired, and
>malware can be formally detected and managed. Every fast-arrival at
>just wipe and re-install" is further evidence of this lack of clue.
>
>2) Conflicting agendas
>
>Win9x was designed as a stand-alone OS for consumers, whereas NT was
>designed as a network client for professionally-managed business
>environments. With XP, this network client design has simply been
>dropped into consumerland as-is, with a few dummy-down concessions to
>the percieved needs of this market, and certain pro-grade
>functionalities ripped out to stop bizworld catching a cheap lunch.
>
>MS takes the consumer market for granted; there's hardly any
>competitive pressure there. MS's competitive need was to demonstrate
>they could scale up to enterprise level, and thus take on Linux
>servers and UNIX/proprietary "big" systems.
>
>So most of the focus has been on professional network management based
>on corporate needs. PCs are beholden to The Server, from which the
>Network Administrator's wishes are imposed, locking down what the user
>can do. Users have limited roles, and so it makes sense to define
>access rights in terms of what user or user role is in effect. All
>data is on The Server, so the PCs that users actually use are
>disposable; just wipe and rebuild, who cares what user preferences are
>lost? No user at the keyboard should ever trump the Network Admin.
>
>This is the complete opposite of what we want for our stand-alone PCs,
>where NO "remote admin" is to ever attain any position of power over
>the system. We generally physically secure our PCs, so it's usually
>keyboard-uber-alles; user roles vary, and we generally fret less about
>user A seeing user B's data than losing access to data altogether -
>which is a real risk, given that these PCs generally do not have
>backup devices or even the nominal MS Backup installed.
>
>It all boils down to this: Who wins, a notional "administrator" that
>seeks to assert control via automation or network, or the user at the
>keyboard? Pro is for the first, Home is supposed to be the second,
>and never will these divergent needs be met in the same product.
>
>We need a mOS to recover data irrespective of the state of the system,
>and assert our management objectives irrespective of how the system
>may be set to block these. But what is a mOS to us, is a fearsome
>hacking tool to the pro-admin'd network environment - and guess who
>wins, when those agendas collide?
>
>So you are sentenced to lose your data and have to surrender your
>installation to any halfway-difficult malware, so that pro-managed
>networks can be protected against anyone with physical access who
>would be able to override administrative controls.
>
>A large part of today's malware pain is a direct result of using a
>network client OS as an unmanaged stand-alone OS. Home users are
>expected to model their PC use on a notional corporate organogram,
>with the same user pretending to be a limited employee one moment, and
>then pretending to be the network administrator the next. Pathetic.
>
>
>
>>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
> Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
>>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -