"Alias" <aka@[notme]maskedandanonymous.org> wrote in message
news:etJHlXSEGHA.1404@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Vanguard wrote:
>
> You're a moron.

Yeah, I already knew that was coming. Big surprise. Your means of "proof"
got exposed. Your balloon popped.

> I gave you two urls of the biggests computer stores chains in Spain that
> sell OEM software

Who says pirates have to wee tiny peddlers constantly evading prosecution by
using temporary Internet sites? There are hundreds if not thousands of
sites peddling pirated software, some even in my own country. Just because
they create a site and provide a business doesn't qualify that they are
doing legal business. The legal means of shutting down illegal businesses
is slow and erratic.

> and you give me links to music and video/dvd piracy.

And software. Actually read the articles. "In 2004, the number of street
vendors selling pirate optical disc products has continued to grow." And
what did YOU get for distribution media for that software? Oh, yes, we are
all so confident that someone who steals music, videos, and "entertainment"
software would never ever steal "other" software, too. Uh huh. They have
all the equipment to press labelled CDs that look like the legal copies but,
of course, they would never use that equipment to store software on those
same CD blanks. Of course pirates who are involved in producing fake music
and video CDs and entertainment software would always become morally upright
when it comes to other software piracy. Uh huh. I didn't realize that
pirates were so select in what they steal.

There are changes coming in Spain but it doesn't seem like they did anything
until sometime in 2003.

> These stores are completely legal

In Spain perhaps. But peddling 12-year old kids to pedophiles might be
legal in some countries but it is still wrong. Legality and morality are
not always in sync. Spain, Indonesia, and other countries, whether legal or
not within their own domain, are a pariah to the rest of the international
community.

> and they get their OEMs from Microsoft who has offices in Spain.

Maybe but you don't have proof that the CDs sold from those stores actually
came from Microsoft. You think all pirates are some joker sitting in his
seller using his CD-RW drive and using a Sharpie marker to label CDs to sell
pirated software? Professionally produced pirated software can be
indistinguishable from the real thing, just like you can get fake IDs that
are perfect copies using even the same technology used to produce the real
IDs.

> I was not pointing you to the music, videos, dvds, etc. sold on the
> street. So, if these computer stores are pirates, Microsoft is too.

It is impossible to pirate yourself. If you have proof that these stores in
Spain have a non-standard OEM contract then do so. Otherwise, you have no
clue as to whether the copies are legal or not. From articles by Microsoft
regarding Spain, Microsoft *is* attempting to stop the pirating there but
they also work within the law which means they are attempting to change the
laws there. You really think if pirates weren't producing their own copies
that they would buy them direct from Microsoft who could shut down the
supply channel in an instant?

The fact that these stores have to go to such great lengths in an attempt to
prove their claim that their product is legitimate makes them suspicious by
that act. "Methinks thou doust protest too much" (William Shakespeare).
You don't have the proof as you claim. I don't, either! How many
legitimate sellers do you visit that have to go to such lengths to proclaim
their innocence? Your proof wasn't proof at all. It can be damn hard if
not impossible to determine if you have a legitimate copy of not.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:38:52 -0500, "PA Bear" <PABearMVP@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I've got a bridge I can sell you, too. A judge sold it to me.


http://linuxjournal.com/article/5628
If you find yourself paying for bundled proprietary software and don't
actually install it, you can legally resell it no matter what the
End-User License Agreement (EULA) says.

You call that Judge liar? I just posted this informing people after
reading those sites and with a lawyer comment. I know this is a
Microsoft group and favor Microsoft. That does not mean Microsoft is
always right. Remember the doj lawsuit? The may be violating that
order. Internet Explorer was to remain a separate product

I would tend to believe a lawyer over this newsgroup.

Example
If I had windows 98se OEM not installed.
I could resale it.
If Microsoft Sued me for reselling it.
I could use that case because the Judge has already ruled that I could
legally resell it,.


Greg Ro

Disclaimer.
I am not accusing Microsoft of any wrong doing. No derogatory or
rude comment were meant to Microsoft or anyone else.


To off topic poster.
Please stick on the Subject.

To Other posters
If you read the EULA. It always said the contract depends on the Laws
of each country and may not be enforceable is all countries.

Microsoft can't sue you. They are not a party to the contract. Your license agreement is between your OEM and you. Don't you pay attention to anything.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goodbye Web Diary
http://margokingston.typepad.com/har....html#comments
=================================================
"GregRo" <webworm11@lycos.com> wrote in message news:422qe1F1gtokoU1@individual.net...
> On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:38:52 -0500, "PA Bear" <PABearMVP@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I've got a bridge I can sell you, too. A judge sold it to me.
>
>
> http://linuxjournal.com/article/5628
> If you find yourself paying for bundled proprietary software and don't
> actually install it, you can legally resell it no matter what the
> End-User License Agreement (EULA) says.
>
> You call that Judge liar? I just posted this informing people after
> reading those sites and with a lawyer comment. I know this is a
> Microsoft group and favor Microsoft. That does not mean Microsoft is
> always right. Remember the doj lawsuit? The may be violating that
> order. Internet Explorer was to remain a separate product
>
> I would tend to believe a lawyer over this newsgroup.
>
> Example
> If I had windows 98se OEM not installed.
> I could resale it.
> If Microsoft Sued me for reselling it.
> I could use that case because the Judge has already ruled that I could
> legally resell it,.
>
>
> Greg Ro
>
> Disclaimer.
> I am not accusing Microsoft of any wrong doing. No derogatory or
> rude comment were meant to Microsoft or anyone else.
>
>
> To off topic poster.
> Please stick on the Subject.
>
> To Other posters
> If you read the EULA. It always said the contract depends on the Laws
> of each country and may not be enforceable is all countries.
>
>
>
>
>

Vanguard wrote:

> "Alias" <aka@[notme]maskedandanonymous.org> wrote in message
> news:etJHlXSEGHA.1404@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>
>> Vanguard wrote:
>>
>> You're a moron.
>
>
> Yeah, I already knew that was coming. Big surprise. Your means of
> "proof" got exposed. Your balloon popped.
>
>> I gave you two urls of the biggests computer stores chains in Spain
>> that sell OEM software
>
>
> Who says pirates have to wee tiny peddlers constantly evading
> prosecution by using temporary Internet sites? There are hundreds if
> not thousands of sites peddling pirated software, some even in my own
> country. Just because they create a site and provide a business doesn't
> qualify that they are doing legal business. The legal means of shutting
> down illegal businesses is slow and erratic.
>
>> and you give me links to music and video/dvd piracy.
>
>
> And software. Actually read the articles. "In 2004, the number of
> street vendors selling pirate optical disc products has continued to
> grow." And what did YOU get for distribution media for that software?
> Oh, yes, we are all so confident that someone who steals music, videos,
> and "entertainment" software would never ever steal "other" software,
> too. Uh huh. They have all the equipment to press labelled CDs that
> look like the legal copies but, of course, they would never use that
> equipment to store software on those same CD blanks. Of course pirates
> who are involved in producing fake music and video CDs and entertainment
> software would always become morally upright when it comes to other
> software piracy. Uh huh. I didn't realize that pirates were so select
> in what they steal.
>
> There are changes coming in Spain but it doesn't seem like they did
> anything until sometime in 2003.
>
>> These stores are completely legal
>
>
> In Spain perhaps. But peddling 12-year old kids to pedophiles might be
> legal in some countries but it is still wrong. Legality and morality
> are not always in sync. Spain, Indonesia, and other countries, whether
> legal or not within their own domain, are a pariah to the rest of the
> international community.
>
>> and they get their OEMs from Microsoft who has offices in Spain.
>
>
> Maybe but you don't have proof that the CDs sold from those stores
> actually came from Microsoft. You think all pirates are some joker
> sitting in his seller using his CD-RW drive and using a Sharpie marker
> to label CDs to sell pirated software? Professionally produced pirated
> software can be indistinguishable from the real thing, just like you can
> get fake IDs that are perfect copies using even the same technology used
> to produce the real IDs.
>
>> I was not pointing you to the music, videos, dvds, etc. sold on the
>> street. So, if these computer stores are pirates, Microsoft is too.
>
>
> It is impossible to pirate yourself. If you have proof that these
> stores in Spain have a non-standard OEM contract then do so. Otherwise,
> you have no clue as to whether the copies are legal or not. From
> articles by Microsoft regarding Spain, Microsoft *is* attempting to stop
> the pirating there but they also work within the law which means they
> are attempting to change the laws there. You really think if pirates
> weren't producing their own copies that they would buy them direct from
> Microsoft who could shut down the supply channel in an instant?
>
> The fact that these stores have to go to such great lengths in an
> attempt to prove their claim that their product is legitimate makes them
> suspicious by that act. "Methinks thou doust protest too much" (William
> Shakespeare). You don't have the proof as you claim. I don't, either!
> How many legitimate sellers do you visit that have to go to such lengths
> to proclaim their innocence? Your proof wasn't proof at all. It can be
> damn hard if not impossible to determine if you have a legitimate copy
> of not.
>

You're nuts. You don't know what you're talking about. APP and PCBox are
legitimate stores. I have three XP OEMs sitting in the drawer and I know
they are legal. The product key was good, they passed activation and
WGA. I don't even know why I am replying to you. NO store sells retail
in Spain. NONE. So, with you're "logic", all the stores in Spain sell
pirated versions of XP.

Puhlease.

--
Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

"Alias" <aka@[notme]maskedandanonymous.org> wrote in message
news:eE97TSZEGHA.3384@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Vanguard wrote:
>
>> "Alias" <aka@[notme]maskedandanonymous.org> wrote in message
>> news:etJHlXSEGHA.1404@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>
>>> Vanguard wrote:
>>>
>>> You're a moron.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, I already knew that was coming. Big surprise. Your means of
>> "proof" got exposed. Your balloon popped.
>>
>>> I gave you two urls of the biggests computer stores chains in Spain that
>>> sell OEM software
>>
>>
>> Who says pirates have to wee tiny peddlers constantly evading prosecution
>> by using temporary Internet sites? There are hundreds if not thousands
>> of sites peddling pirated software, some even in my own country. Just
>> because they create a site and provide a business doesn't qualify that
>> they are doing legal business. The legal means of shutting down illegal
>> businesses is slow and erratic.
>>
>>> and you give me links to music and video/dvd piracy.
>>
>>
>> And software. Actually read the articles. "In 2004, the number of
>> street vendors selling pirate optical disc products has continued to
>> grow." And what did YOU get for distribution media for that software?
>> Oh, yes, we are all so confident that someone who steals music, videos,
>> and "entertainment" software would never ever steal "other" software,
>> too. Uh huh. They have all the equipment to press labelled CDs that
>> look like the legal copies but, of course, they would never use that
>> equipment to store software on those same CD blanks. Of course pirates
>> who are involved in producing fake music and video CDs and entertainment
>> software would always become morally upright when it comes to other
>> software piracy. Uh huh. I didn't realize that pirates were so select
>> in what they steal.
>>
>> There are changes coming in Spain but it doesn't seem like they did
>> anything until sometime in 2003.
>>
>>> These stores are completely legal
>>
>>
>> In Spain perhaps. But peddling 12-year old kids to pedophiles might be
>> legal in some countries but it is still wrong. Legality and morality are
>> not always in sync. Spain, Indonesia, and other countries, whether legal
>> or not within their own domain, are a pariah to the rest of the
>> international community.
>>
>>> and they get their OEMs from Microsoft who has offices in Spain.
>>
>>
>> Maybe but you don't have proof that the CDs sold from those stores
>> actually came from Microsoft. You think all pirates are some joker
>> sitting in his seller using his CD-RW drive and using a Sharpie marker to
>> label CDs to sell pirated software? Professionally produced pirated
>> software can be indistinguishable from the real thing, just like you can
>> get fake IDs that are perfect copies using even the same technology used
>> to produce the real IDs.
>>
>>> I was not pointing you to the music, videos, dvds, etc. sold on the
>>> street. So, if these computer stores are pirates, Microsoft is too.
>>
>>
>> It is impossible to pirate yourself. If you have proof that these stores
>> in Spain have a non-standard OEM contract then do so. Otherwise, you
>> have no clue as to whether the copies are legal or not. From articles by
>> Microsoft regarding Spain, Microsoft *is* attempting to stop the pirating
>> there but they also work within the law which means they are attempting
>> to change the laws there. You really think if pirates weren't producing
>> their own copies that they would buy them direct from Microsoft who could
>> shut down the supply channel in an instant?
>>
>> The fact that these stores have to go to such great lengths in an attempt
>> to prove their claim that their product is legitimate makes them
>> suspicious by that act. "Methinks thou doust protest too much" (William
>> Shakespeare). You don't have the proof as you claim. I don't, either!
>> How many legitimate sellers do you visit that have to go to such lengths
>> to proclaim their innocence? Your proof wasn't proof at all. It can be
>> damn hard if not impossible to determine if you have a legitimate copy of
>> not.
>>
>
> You're nuts. You don't know what you're talking about. APP and PCBox are
> legitimate stores. I have three XP OEMs sitting in the drawer and I know
> they are legal. The product key was good, they passed activation and WGA.
> I don't even know why I am replying to you. NO store sells retail in
> Spain. NONE. So, with you're "logic", all the stores in Spain sell pirated
> versions of XP.


No "store" sells *retail*? Well, that would explain a lot.

"Spanish police arrest 14 for Microsoft piracy"
http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/...spiracy_1.html

Yep, thar be pirates in my country, too, but I'm not the one claiming that
proof of legitimacy is simply measured by the ability to sell. It is
unusual, though, that the pirate bothers to include certificates unless they
are a huge volume pirate. Piracy works best in those countries that have
little legal, if any, deterrence against it.

Showing a store that gave you the software without any hardware is not proof
that the store complied with the OEM license. That it activates also
doesn't provide proof because the hardware isn't physically or logically
tied to the software; i.e., there is no way for the activation server to
know that the software you are activating is actually used with the
qualifying hardware that was supposed to come with it. If that were the
case, piracy using Dell, HP, and other brand-specific OEM CDs would vanish
overnight on eBay because no buyer could ever activate those CDs. Your
"proof" sucks. To be frank, I can't prove that my copy is 100% legit,
either. I cannot prove legitimacy simply because I managed to get the
software without hardware and that it activates. The activation is NOT to
ensure the OEM contract was fully complied with by the OEM supplier or that
the user got the hardware and complied with OEM license. The seller is
*supposed* to bundle the OEM software with hardware, and obviously the
seller could violate that by just giving you the OEM software.

You do NOT need the qualifying hardware to activate. There is no way for
the activation server to know that the hardware on which Windows is running
is the qualifying hardware or computer that was supposed to accompany the
software. The OEM supplier is *supposed* to require inclusion of hardware,
but that doesn't affect your ability to install and activate the software if
the hardware is missing. As the end user, the most you can ever get is a
warm fuzzy feeling that you PROBABLY have a legitimate copy. You'll never
have absolute proof. Saying a store sold you the software without hardware
and that it activates is not proof of legitimacy, especially since
activation is "loose" considering the general-purpose hardware platform on
which it gets installed.

Not all pirates are the low-quality cut-and-run types you find on eBay.
Some pirated products are nearly indistinguishable from the real stuff. It
sure would be nice if a larger number of Microsoft folk actually visited
these newsgroups so that maybe one of them could go internal to check if
there are any Spain-based (or anywhere else) OEM resellers that are allowed
to sell the OEM version without it being installed on a prebuilt computer or
require qualifying hardware. The link provided by Kerry to the OEM Supplier
web page at Microsoft has the OEM contract listed and I don't see where the
OEM'er can get away without including some hardware with the Windows
software, but it is the standard contract yet I doubt your "stores" would
qualify for specialty contracts from Microsoft.

Vanguard wrote:

> "Alias" <aka@[notme]maskedandanonymous.org> wrote in message
> news:eE97TSZEGHA.3384@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>
>> Vanguard wrote:
>>
>>> "Alias" <aka@[notme]maskedandanonymous.org> wrote in message
>>> news:etJHlXSEGHA.1404@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>
>>>> Vanguard wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You're a moron.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, I already knew that was coming. Big surprise. Your means of
>>> "proof" got exposed. Your balloon popped.
>>>
>>>> I gave you two urls of the biggests computer stores chains in Spain
>>>> that sell OEM software
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Who says pirates have to wee tiny peddlers constantly evading
>>> prosecution by using temporary Internet sites? There are hundreds if
>>> not thousands of sites peddling pirated software, some even in my own
>>> country. Just because they create a site and provide a business
>>> doesn't qualify that they are doing legal business. The legal means
>>> of shutting down illegal businesses is slow and erratic.
>>>
>>>> and you give me links to music and video/dvd piracy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And software. Actually read the articles. "In 2004, the number of
>>> street vendors selling pirate optical disc products has continued to
>>> grow." And what did YOU get for distribution media for that
>>> software? Oh, yes, we are all so confident that someone who steals
>>> music, videos, and "entertainment" software would never ever steal
>>> "other" software, too. Uh huh. They have all the equipment to press
>>> labelled CDs that look like the legal copies but, of course, they
>>> would never use that equipment to store software on those same CD
>>> blanks. Of course pirates who are involved in producing fake music
>>> and video CDs and entertainment software would always become morally
>>> upright when it comes to other software piracy. Uh huh. I didn't
>>> realize that pirates were so select in what they steal.
>>>
>>> There are changes coming in Spain but it doesn't seem like they did
>>> anything until sometime in 2003.
>>>
>>>> These stores are completely legal
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In Spain perhaps. But peddling 12-year old kids to pedophiles might
>>> be legal in some countries but it is still wrong. Legality and
>>> morality are not always in sync. Spain, Indonesia, and other
>>> countries, whether legal or not within their own domain, are a pariah
>>> to the rest of the international community.
>>>
>>>> and they get their OEMs from Microsoft who has offices in Spain.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe but you don't have proof that the CDs sold from those stores
>>> actually came from Microsoft. You think all pirates are some joker
>>> sitting in his seller using his CD-RW drive and using a Sharpie
>>> marker to label CDs to sell pirated software? Professionally
>>> produced pirated software can be indistinguishable from the real
>>> thing, just like you can get fake IDs that are perfect copies using
>>> even the same technology used to produce the real IDs.
>>>
>>>> I was not pointing you to the music, videos, dvds, etc. sold on the
>>>> street. So, if these computer stores are pirates, Microsoft is too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is impossible to pirate yourself. If you have proof that these
>>> stores in Spain have a non-standard OEM contract then do so.
>>> Otherwise, you have no clue as to whether the copies are legal or
>>> not. From articles by Microsoft regarding Spain, Microsoft *is*
>>> attempting to stop the pirating there but they also work within the
>>> law which means they are attempting to change the laws there. You
>>> really think if pirates weren't producing their own copies that they
>>> would buy them direct from Microsoft who could shut down the supply
>>> channel in an instant?
>>>
>>> The fact that these stores have to go to such great lengths in an
>>> attempt to prove their claim that their product is legitimate makes
>>> them suspicious by that act. "Methinks thou doust protest too much"
>>> (William Shakespeare). You don't have the proof as you claim. I
>>> don't, either! How many legitimate sellers do you visit that have to
>>> go to such lengths to proclaim their innocence? Your proof wasn't
>>> proof at all. It can be damn hard if not impossible to determine if
>>> you have a legitimate copy of not.
>>>
>>
>> You're nuts. You don't know what you're talking about. APP and PCBox
>> are legitimate stores. I have three XP OEMs sitting in the drawer and
>> I know they are legal. The product key was good, they passed
>> activation and WGA. I don't even know why I am replying to you. NO
>> store sells retail in Spain. NONE. So, with you're "logic", all the
>> stores in Spain sell pirated versions of XP.
>
>
>
> No "store" sells *retail*? Well, that would explain a lot.
>
> "Spanish police arrest 14 for Microsoft piracy"
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/...spiracy_1.html

That article doesn't reference the stores I mentioned. They caught a
pirate. So what?
>
> Yep, thar be pirates in my country, too, but I'm not the one claiming
> that proof of legitimacy is simply measured by the ability to sell. It
> is unusual, though, that the pirate bothers to include certificates
> unless they are a huge volume pirate. Piracy works best in those
> countries that have little legal, if any, deterrence against it.


>
> Showing a store that gave you the software without any hardware is not
> proof that the store complied with the OEM license. That it activates
> also doesn't provide proof because the hardware isn't physically or
> logically tied to the software; i.e., there is no way for the activation
> server to know that the software you are activating is actually used
> with the qualifying hardware that was supposed to come with it. If that
> were the case, piracy using Dell, HP, and other brand-specific OEM CDs
> would vanish overnight on eBay because no buyer could ever activate
> those CDs. Your "proof" sucks. To be frank, I can't prove that my copy
> is 100% legit, either. I cannot prove legitimacy simply because I
> managed to get the software without hardware and that it activates. The
> activation is NOT to ensure the OEM contract was fully complied with by
> the OEM supplier or that the user got the hardware and complied with OEM
> license. The seller is *supposed* to bundle the OEM software with
> hardware, and obviously the seller could violate that by just giving you
> the OEM software.
>
> You do NOT need the qualifying hardware to activate. There is no way
> for the activation server to know that the hardware on which Windows is
> running is the qualifying hardware or computer that was supposed to
> accompany the software. The OEM supplier is *supposed* to require
> inclusion of hardware, but that doesn't affect your ability to install
> and activate the software if the hardware is missing. As the end user,
> the most you can ever get is a warm fuzzy feeling that you PROBABLY have
> a legitimate copy. You'll never have absolute proof. Saying a store
> sold you the software without hardware and that it activates is not
> proof of legitimacy, especially since activation is "loose" considering
> the general-purpose hardware platform on which it gets installed.
>
> Not all pirates are the low-quality cut-and-run types you find on eBay.
> Some pirated products are nearly indistinguishable from the real stuff.
> It sure would be nice if a larger number of Microsoft folk actually
> visited these newsgroups so that maybe one of them could go internal to
> check if there are any Spain-based (or anywhere else) OEM resellers that
> are allowed to sell the OEM version without it being installed on a
> prebuilt computer or require qualifying hardware. The link provided by
> Kerry to the OEM Supplier web page at Microsoft has the OEM contract
> listed and I don't see where the OEM'er can get away without including
> some hardware with the Windows software, but it is the standard contract
> yet I doubt your "stores" would qualify for specialty contracts from
> Microsoft.
>

You don't know what you're talking about and only want to get into a
pissing contest. Piss off.

--
Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.